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SS applying for a Recovery Order

This forum is for asking questions about your own case. Please do not use any real names here for yourself or your children.

Postby avenger on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:04 pm

Your focus should be on the children and getting them back to you....or progressing towards that.


I thought that was everybodys focus hence the court fight. Its about care and compassion not just mechanical recounting of the law.

They are just trying to grind you down. If they thought you were that much of a risk that they needed to visit you on hols then you wouldnt have the children.

The whole thing ethically stinks. Someone with a fragile disposition should not be subjected to all these dirty tactics designed to destabilise you and cause you further distress. At least you got the psych you wanted.Its a shame you had to go throught the mill to get it.

I dont see why they have to use old reports and send them to present expert,especially when your health could have moved on by then. Drastically in some cases.
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Postby cptntacredi on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:26 pm

They want to change the nature of the report and assessment, away from medical and health matters and the situation at present to a sort of social worker assessment and based on what is in the voluminous files.

Since most of this is complete rubbish (read them) and based on SS allegations you would get a report which supported them.

This was confirmed to me during a sharp arguement over the phone with one of them.

:P :P :evil: :evil: :x :x :o :o
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Postby loving Mama on Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:06 am

Thanks Avenger & Cptnt.

I agree with you both, this is nothing short of destabilising tactics, and shafting especially if you see the wording of the draft LOI to the independent psychiatrist.

I wouldn't mind but it is my daughters sol who has done it too, he is such a tosspot. It is more than obvious who he is supporting and it is NOT his client. He doesn't like me cos the judge challenged him and told him that keeping the court waiting for 4 hours was not acceptable, and that he should arrange for alternative representation for my daughter if he was going to be late in future. The judge threatened to bar him from his court if he was late again!! Oh dear seems he didn't like being challenged by the judge pmsl :twisted: :twisted:
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Postby mobaldy2005 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:20 am

Loving Mama,

I thought this was your application and that it was upto you to formulate the agreed Letters of instructions!!!
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Postby cptntacredi on Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:36 am

mobaldy2005,

things have changed since your departure.

the court simply does not accept the Practice Direction in force and ignores it.

meanwhile they all act together to get the result their clients or allies want.

there are persistent claims this this really the SS department's application.

you wouldn't believe what is going on.

8) 8) :lol: :lol: :P :P :x :x
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Postby avenger on Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:42 pm

Your doing well Lovingmama. I was a complete nervous wreck going through proceedings and too nervous even to say my name at the beginning. Court is a very intimidating and nerve wracking process without having to fight for your precious one.
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Postby lyndamac on Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:54 pm

The new term for Gillick is Frazier I was talking to my cousin who said the mother does not want the name Gillick used any more so the new term os Frazier
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Postby lyndamac on Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:03 pm

My cousin is a barrister not sure if I spelled the name correct.
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Postby loving Mama on Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:14 pm

Thanks Linda & Avenger.

I am god damned furious that corrupt lil asswipe LA barrister has written the directions of the judge, which are incorrect and refuses to amend them. It makes it appear that I have NOT adhered to what the judge directed, yet I have!! The barrister is as corrupt as hell, I am sooooooooo angry I want to explode, I am going to be busy reporting him to The Bar Council. He should NOT be writing any directions, it should be a clerk to the judge, who is impartial of all parties. What can I do about this matter? It seems the LA barrister has the other parties and court staff in his pocket. I need to get my case to a higher court asap!!!!

Anyone have any media contacts who would be interested in following my case? Nobody has broken the courts where my case is yet.
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Postby Secrets on Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:18 pm

Does anyone know the difference between the 2? I've found journals citing the differences but don't know how this works for us.
It seems to be differences in consent, assent and dissent. But haven't sussed it out.

Can anyone explain it?


Gillick or Fraser? A plea for consistency over competence in children

Gillick and Fraser are not interchangeable


The first 150 words of the full text of this article appear below.

In most countries the issue of deciding on the ability of children to make decisions about their own medical treatment causes some dilemmas. In Britain people describe the assessment of competence of children in terms of either Gillick competence or the Fraser guidelines, as if they were interchangeable. However, they are not, and their difference needs to be made clear.

The proponents of each concept have failed to explain the differences between them and are encouraging synonymy where none exists. Research ethics committees are insisting upon the use of "Fraser," motivated by the honourable, but false, belief that the term "Gillick competence" is unwelcome to the woman after whom it is named. National organisations are perpetuating this myth. And teachers of medical law are encountering genuine difficulty in trying to resolve this issue.

Guidelines.

Young people under the age of 16 can consent to medical treatment if they have sufficient maturity and judgement to enable them fully to understand what is proposed. This was clarified in England and Wales by the House of Lords in the case of Gillick vs West Norfolk and Wisbech AHA & DHSS in 1985.

Similar provision is made in Scotland by The Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991. In Northern Ireland, although separate legislation applies, the then Department of Health and Social Services Northern Ireland stated that there was no reason to suppose that the House of Lords' decision would not be followed by the Northern Ireland Courts.

Although it is an offence for a man to have sex with a girl under 16 (17 in Northern Ireland) it is lawful for doctors to provide contraceptive advice and treatment without parental consent providing certain criteria are met. These criteria, known as the Fraser Guidelines, were laid down by Lord Fraser in the House of Lords' case and require the professional to be satisfied that:

* the young person will understand the professional's advice;

* the young person cannot be persuaded to inform their parents;

* the young person is likely to begin, or to continue having, sexual intercourse with or without contraceptive treatment;

* unless the young person receives contraceptive treatment, their physical or mental health, or both, are likely to suffer;

* the young person's best interests require them to receive contraceptive advice or treatment with or without parental consent.

Although these criteria specifically refer to contraception, the principles are deemed to apply to other treatments, including abortion.

Young people under the age of 16 have as great a right to confidentiality as any other patient. If someone under 16 is not judged mature enough to consent to treatment, the consultation itself can still remain confidential.

The judgement in the House of Lords referred specifically to doctors but it is considered to apply to other health professionals, including nurses. It may also be interpreted as covering youth workers and health promotion workers who may be giving contraceptive advice and condoms to young people under 16, but this has not been tested in court.

If a person under the age of 18 refuses to consent to treatment, it is possible in some cases for their parents or the courts to overrule their decision. However, this right can only be exercised on the basis that the welfare of the young person is paramount. In this context welfare does not simply mean their physical health. The psychological effect of having the decision overruled would have to be taken into account and would normally only be an option when the young person was thought likely to suffer "grave and irreversible mental or physical harm". Usually when a parent wants to overrule a young person's decision to refuse treatment, health professionals will apply to the courts for a final decision.

Gillick Judgement
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/291/6503/1208
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Postby Secrets on Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:43 pm

2.1.2 Children’s consent
There are some exceptions to normal consent procedures involving children. In
addition to this there are also legislative variations between different parts of the
United Kingdom.
In England & Wales a person who has attained the age of 16 years has the legal
capacity to consent to treatment (Family Law Reform Act 1969).
8
In Scotland a
person under the age of 16 years has legal capacity to consent (Age of Legal
Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991).
9
In Northern Ireland, a minor who has attained 16
years shall have effective consent to treatment (Age of Majority Act (Northern
Ireland) 1969).
10
The Children Act 1989 does not deal specifically with consent, but makes provision
for a minor to refuse
medical or psychiatric examination.
11
In addition to legislation, there is case law which determines if a minor is competent
to consent to treatment
(Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech AHA, 1985).
12
This case
law led to the establishment of Gillick Competence.
However, this has subsequently been updated following a ruling by Lord Fraser.
Footnotes: -
8. Family Law Reform Act 1969
http://www.eidohealthcare.com/consent/m ... tion3.html
9. Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/Uk ... 0_en_1.htm
10. Age of Majority Act (Northern Ireland) 1969
http://www.northernireland-legislation. ... oups/1960-
1969/1969/1969anip/c28_000.htm
11. Children Act 1989
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1989/Uk ... 1_en_1.htm
12. Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech AHA, 1985
http://www.swarb.co.uk/c/hl/1985gillick.shtml
Institute of Medical Illustrators
June 2008
A Code of Professional Conduct for Members
8
Page 9
The assessment of a child’s competence is now referred to as Fraser
Competence.
13
This assessment is clearly the responsibility of the requesting
clinician.
In a court of law, any decisions regarding competence are potentially open
to challenge.


Childrens act = REFUSAL to consent = DISSENT

Gillick = CONSENT

Fraser =
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Postby loving Mama on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:11 pm

Copy of An Email Issued To The LA Chief Solicitor Today Outlining Issues Of Contention


Dear (Chief LA Sol)

Confirmation of the matters discussed in our telephone conversation earlier today:


1. I reminded you that I am in fact the Applicant Mother, and the Local Authority are indeed Respondents (I believe you have confirmed this with (MKF) and the court have also confirmed this).

2. I stated I was dismayed to discover (Mr LA Bent Barrister) has been writing the draft orders of the judge, when I had not been consulted on this matter and would not be in agreement. I also stated that it is the Court Clerk's job to write the directions of the judge for each hearing, which is preferrable due to (Mr LA Bent Barrister) or any other party writing the draft orders inaccurately.

3. I stated I was deeply unhappy that (Mr LA Bent Barrister) had persisted in writing the draft order when I had emailed him (copy email below) to state I did not agree with the points he had listed in the draft order as they were not an accurate representation of the directions Recorder **** had given.

Dear (Mr LA Bent Barrister)

Yet again you have incorrectly re-written the judges directions which are NOT the directions Recorder *** set out, just as you tried with the hand written letter at the last hearing. (Mr LA Bent Barrister), I am well aware of the tactics you are trying to employ, however I am an assertive parent and will not allow your unprofessional conduct to continue. I shall now be referring the matter of your conduct to The Bar Council as your conduct is unprofessional and unacceptable. Please note this is not a threat, as I am now asserting myself and making you aware that the situation is not acceptable. I will take further advice from my McKenzie Friend.

I have contacted the court and made them aware of the situation, which they are now dealing with.


Applicant Mother

4. I stated I was aggrieved that (Mr LA Bent Barrister) had sent me an email yesterday at 15.57 copied below:

URGENT

26th September 2009
3.55pm

Dear **** (applicant Mother)

Thank you very much for your e-mail timed at 12.28pm today. I note what you say. My position remains the same. You do not state how my directions are different from the Recorder's. Please let me know. Unless you do this by 4.00pm tomorrow I shall (to repeat) send him the draft order.

Yours

(Mr LA Bent Barrister)



5. I then received another email from (Mr LA Bent Barrister) at 16.19 yesterday (copied below) the email had yet another draft order attached, which again was NOT in line with the directions of Recorder ****. I am also aware the draft order could not have been agreed by all parties as the lead social worker (****) agreed with me that the agreed time of the undertaking for me to arrive at the office, *********** was in fact 4.30pm 11th August 2009, when (Mr LA Bent Barrister) has listed a different time of 4pm. I am also aware LA Legal Dept could not have been able to agree with (Mr LA Bent Barrister) on the draft order as only the two social workers were present during the actual hearing, without a manager nor a member of LA Legal Dept.


Dear Judge

Here is my final draft of your order which has been agreed by all parties except **** (applicant mother).
Apologies for the delay in sending the order following on a message from **** of **** County Court of **** County Court staff.

Yours sincerely

(Mr LA Bent Barrister)
Counsel



As I am sure you can appreciate (Mr LA Bent Barrister) had stated he did not intend to file the email to the judge until 4pm today however (Mr LA Bent Barrister) then went ahead with sending the email and draft order to Recorder **** 22 minutes after his email to me requesting my feed back on the errors of his draft order. I am sure you will agree 22 minutes is not a sufficient timescale to enable me to repsond to (Mr LA Bent Barrister), and especially as I had informed all parties that my personal computer is currently undergoing maintenance after being hit by a malware virus, and 24 hours notice for a response is not a sufficient timescale either. Please bear in mind my having to arrange access to another computer and as my children are also on school holidays for another 2 weeks my priorities as a parent are the care of my children.


6. I am aggrieved that (Mr LA Bent Barrister) attempted to have me sign a hand written document in court that stating I would give permission for the release of ALL my medical files, despite Recorder **** having made it abundantly clear throughout the hearing of 10th August that he would not direct my medical files be released into the proceedings due to the need for the respect of confidentiality of my on-going therapeutic relationships, so as not to prejudice my current therapeutic work. Recorder **** actually directed that only documents Dr (Independent Expert Witness) felt relevant were to be released directly to him from my medical files (therefore it is the remit of Dr (IEW) to make that decision and request any such documentation from my healthcare professionals).

*** PLEASE NOTE - Until the matter of my medical information is rectified my healthcare professionals will NOT release any information to any party ***

7. I advised you that the Local Authority had withdrawn their application for a S.50 Recovery Order and had stated they wished to amend their aplication to a S.34(4) & S.91(14). I reminded you that if the Local Authority wished to have a S.34(4) & S.91(14) granted they had to make a new application and could not just amend applications, and they were also reminded of this matter by both District Judge **** and Recorder ****. I also reminded you that it is not appropriate for the Local Authority to simply try ressurect the application for a S.50 when they had stated they no longer wished to pursue such an application, and as such must file a fresh application for such an order to be considered by the court.

8. I also advised you that S.91(14) orders were created initially to safeguard children from the distress of persistent and frequent, on-going, and vexatious applications made by the absent parent, which Local Authorities have now utilised to needlessly separate children from their parents. I also made you aware my application to discharge their Care Orders is and was appropriate to the circumstances of my children being in my care, therefore any application for a S.91(14) by the Local Authority would in itself be needless and vexatious.

9. I advised you that Recorder **** had directed me to faciliate a meeting between (my youngest daughter) and the Cafcass Guardian, NOT between all the children and the Guardian as (Mr LA Bent Barrister) has listed in the draft order. I have also informed ****, Deputy Service Manager, of this matter as (my youngest daughter) has instructed a Voice For The Child In Care Advocate who is supporting (youngest daughter) in this matter as the judges direction re this matter it is not in line with (youngest daughter) wishes & feelings.

10. I advised you that the Practice Direction, of 1st April 2008 re Experts In Family Proceedings Relating To Children and also The Public Law Outline had been breached and that these were statutory laws which must adhered to by all parties.

11. I advised you to consider whether it is approriate for (Mr LA Bent Barrister) to continue to be appointed as barrister for the Local Authority, due to the nature of his continued unprofessional behaviour in this case. You agreed this would be an appropriate course of action, and stated you would make serious consideration in this matter.

12. You agreed to look into the issues raised in this email and inform me of your findings.

I am sure you will agree this is not a sustainable situation, nor it is conducive to the well being of my children. I hope I have your assurance you will take these matters seriously and look forward to your response in this matter.

Loving Mama
(Applicant Mother)

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Postby NRparent on Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:45 pm

lyndamac wrote:The new term for Gillick is Frazier I was talking to my cousin who said the mother does not want the name Gillick used any more so the new term os Frazier


There are 2 levels of competency.

Gillick is generally intended for a child making a decision about a medical procedure to a GP. A GP advises a child to undergo a medical procedure, the child of about 12 refuses the procedure and is able to reason their decision out with the GP, is considered old enough to make an informed decision. The GP is expected to respect the patients wishes.

Frazer is generally the level of maturity that a child attains when they reach the age of about 16.

Frazer level is rarely used anymore.

Gillick is used more often because children want to be more involved in decisions about themselves.
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Postby loving Mama on Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:13 pm

Some links and references to Gillick & Fraser Competent, should explain the difference:


http://www.mentalhealthalliance.org.uk/ ... ildren.pdf


http://www1.surreycc.gov.uk/cafis/manua ... etent.html

Fraser Competent

Fraser Competent is a term used to describe a child under 16 who is considered to be of sufficient age and understanding to be competent to receive contraceptive advice without parental knowledge or consent. (The term is therefore narrower than the term Gillick Competent although it is often used to mean the same thing.) The test is that the doctor must be satisfied that;

•The child will understand the advice
•The child cannot be persuaded to tell his or her parents or allow the doctor to tell them that they are seeking contraceptive advice
•The child is likely to begin or continue having unprotected sex with or without contraceptive treatment
•The child's physical or mental health is likely to suffer unless he or she receives contraceptive advice or treatment.



http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/short/332/7545/807

Gillick or Fraser? A plea for consistency over competence in children
Gillick and Fraser are not interchangeable

In most countries the issue of deciding on the ability of children to make decisions about their own medical treatment causes some dilemmas. In Britain people describe the assessment of competence of children in terms of either Gillick competence or the Fraser guidelines, as if they were interchangeable. However, they are not, and their difference needs to be made clear.

The proponents of each concept have failed to explain the differences between them and are encouraging synonymy where none exists. Research ethics committees are insisting upon the use of "Fraser," motivated by the honourable, but false, belief that the term "Gillick competence" is unwelcome to the woman after whom it is named. National organisations are perpetuating this myth. And teachers of medical law are encountering genuine difficulty in trying to resolve this issue.

In UK law a person's 18th birthday draws the line between childhood and adulthood,1 so that . . . [Full text of this article]


Robert Wheeler, consultant paediatric and neonatal surgeon

Wessex Regional Centre for Paediatric Surgery, Southampton University NHS Trust, Southampton SO16 6YD
(robert.wheeler@suht.swest.nhs.uk)
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Postby loving Mama on Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:45 am

NOW I AM FACED WITH THE BIGGEST DILEMA YET

JUDICIAL REVIEW OR COURT OF APPEAL

DECISIONS DECISIONS :roll: :roll:

I have a feeling I should go with both courses of action on differing issues, but which ones??? This is where I really do have to get it right!!!!
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